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okay here's our interview with Anthony

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Davies

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I thought I'd like to cover a little bit

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of covid because I think that that

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really plays into a lot of what you're

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talking about when we talk about

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cooperation and coercion and it's a real

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struggle right now that governments

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around the world are dealing with which

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is whether to use cooperation or

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coercion to fight the coronavirus that I

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didn't think I'd still be talking about

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it right now but now with the stupid

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Delta variant and so on I guess we got

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to still talk about this

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coronavirus uh so

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um but maybe we'll start with you giving

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just a kind of a brief explanation of

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the thesis of your book and the concepts

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of cooperation and coercion and then

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let's start talking about it in

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principle with with coven

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sure so we sat down to write cooperation

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coercion and in what was the motivation

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for this was realizing that every time

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humans come together to do anything and

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is when there's more than one of us we

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organize either according to principles

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of cooperation or principles of coercion

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um principles of cooperation simply are

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we come together voluntarily and if

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things work out that's great and if they

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don't you're free to walk away and do

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something else principles of a coercion

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however involve somebody or somebody's

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telling us what we're going to do and by

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you know threat of force you have to do

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what these people say and typically we

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think of government as the coercive body

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and markets as the Cooperative body but

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you know there could be other things you

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know typically government is the

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accepted course of body

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um on the Cooperative side you can have

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things of course markets but also other

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things like um your your church

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Community is a Cooperative Venture Civic

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organizations or cooperative Ventures

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your Friday night poker game is a

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Cooperative Venture so any any situation

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which you're free to walk away is a

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Cooperative Venture now we started out

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with the intent of showing cooperations

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good course is bad

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and as we got to the end of the book it

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wasn't working and we realized it wasn't

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working because that's the wrong Story

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the right story is these are two tools

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that we use to address problems some

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problems are better suited to

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cooperation other problems are better

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suited to coercion and the the trick to

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forming a healthy and vibrant Society is

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using the right tool for the right

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um okay why don't you just hit for us

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briefly what What's um what calls for

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coercion versus cooperation yeah and

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there's a there are all sorts of

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examples around the edges that we can

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argue about but generally speaking the

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the problems that involve uh that are to

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which coercion is best suited are

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problems that involve somebody imposing

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harm on someone else and the harm can be

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physical it could be

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um a company defrauding customers it

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could be somebody polluting the

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environment these are all instances of

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one person imposing harm on another and

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when you have a situation like that

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coercion is generally the correct tool

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um and you know all of this ultimately I

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think then tells you what's the proper

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role of government that's the end of

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what you're trying to figure out right

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right is is what things are proper for

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the government to take on and what's

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proper to leave to the private sector

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um what about something that kind of

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seems in the middle and it like roads

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and bridges type of thing how do you

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yeah yeah and that's that that's an

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interesting thing because roads

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represent this weird kind of a thing

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where there's some question if you left

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it to the private sector of whether the

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things would get built at all and the

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problem there is once a road is built

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anybody can use it and if anybody can

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use it why should I pay for it and you

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have this problem right it's called a

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public good problem and typically

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government is is better at addressing

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problems like that than markets however

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as technology changes it becomes more

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possible for markets to address problems

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like that so you have things like GPS

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trackers today which we did not have in

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the past and with GPS trackers you can

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track where a car is moving and if the

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road is private you can send the person

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a bill for it and so as technology

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progresses the number of goods that are

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probably over here in this category of

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best best to use coercion to produce

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these things that the number of goods

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actually starts to decline and you get

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more and more Goods over here on this

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side that for which cooperation is the

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better tool

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and in general cooperation is well I

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guess this is the theory you went in

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with that cooperation is necessarily

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better than coercion

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um I mean

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that's true for most things I guess what

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you're saying it's true for most things

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and again the Line in the Sand tends to

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be this thing of preventing people from

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harming each other generally speaking

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people don't harm each other I yes some

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people do but they tend to be the

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exception and so generally speaking

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cooperation tends to be the rule more

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often than not and and we use it so

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often we don't even think about it I

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mean our conversation right here is an

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example of a Cooperative Venture and

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we've freely came together and we're

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doing this thing and and so we tend to

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notice the coercive things because

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they're so rare

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and so what are some of the things that

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government is coercing that you believe

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would be better left to cooperating

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yeah there are a couple of big things um

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Social Security is one of them so the

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government comes in and says okay by

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force we're going to take a portion of

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your paycheck and we're going to use it

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to support people who are who are

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retired and and we can have a

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conversation about

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um a social safety net for people who

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really do need something but that number

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of people tend to be very small compared

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to the size of what Social Security

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covers this is a this is a coercive

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Venture and one of the problems is that

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with coercive Ventures you don't get the

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profit loss feedback that makes

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cooperation so vibrant and so we have

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this situation now where Social Security

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itself says that in about 15 years it's

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going to be insolvent

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um it's it's as compared to it's

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voluntary brother the 401K plan the IRA

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Social Security is is not a um it's not

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a vibrant it's not a healthy program

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like these other private Cooperative

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programs are okay and

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what's the other one the other big one

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well another good example is the minimum

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wage and we we talk about the minimum

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wage as if this was an argument a

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conflict between the employer and the

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employee and the government's going to

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step in it's going to use this coercive

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force and tell the employer you must pay

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your workers 15 an hour

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and it turns out that the the conflict

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there is really not employer versus

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employee it's higher skilled employee

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versus lower skilled employee and so

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when we use this coercive Force the

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government saying all right you've got

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to pay your workers 15 an hour

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what employers do is they look around

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and they say okay who here's worth

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fifteen dollars an hour

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those people keep their jobs the other

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ones don't and what's the problem of

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course is it's the people who lose their

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jobs the lower skilled the less educated

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the less experienced workers those are

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the ones who need our help the most

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and they're actually getting the fuzzy

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end of the sucker in this whole deal and

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the reason for that is because we have

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used this coercive tool it's very

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powerful but it's a very blunt object

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and you're more often than not likely to

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be hurting the very people you're

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looking to help and so that's what

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happens tends tends to happen with

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Social Security

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yeah or a minimum wage there are minimum

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excuse me minimum wage yes yeah I I mean

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I was thinking about minimum wages we

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were preparing for this because I know

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you've written about that and just

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thinking that the ability

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it's a significant infringement on

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individual rights I mean the ability to

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put a price on your own labor I mean

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what what what what could be more

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personal than that to say this is what

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I'm going to charge you to do something

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for you and the government's saying no

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you can't do that you can't work for

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free

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voluntarily you can't work for one

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dollar you can't work for ten dollars

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you can't work for 14 if you're going to

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sell your labor you must sell it at no

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less than 15 an hour yes yes and that's

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you you're using the exact right words

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because the way the politicians phrase

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it is they say we're going if we're

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going to force the employers to pay 15

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really what the minimum wage does is it

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says to the worker if you can't find

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someone willing to pay you 15 you may

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not work right

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and and that's an example again where

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it seems like coercion should only be

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used in the absence of any other

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because I mean in general you don't want

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to tell people what to do you want to

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have maximum Freedom ideally so a

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government should only come in and use

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coercion we're absolutely necessary yeah

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and that's that's probably a good

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practical rule of thumb is when you see

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a problem use cooperation first Only

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Resort to coercion when the cooperation

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fails and we tend to do it the other way

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around we see a problem and so many of

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us immediately run to Washington and we

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say we need a law to fix this problem I

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know you used to live in Philadelphia

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Philadelphia is a beautiful example of

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this they had a problem with you know

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kids are drinking sugary drinks and you

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know becoming fat because of it and the

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city council said all right we're going

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to stop these um teenagers from drinking

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sugary drinks we're going to use

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coercion to do it and we'll impose this

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large tax on sugary drinks and what

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happened well what happened is that

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people went on Philadelphia one on

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consuming just as much sugary drinks

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after the taxes before what did they do

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they drove outside the city limits and

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bought their sugary drinks there where

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the tax didn't apply oh and while they

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were there they bought their other

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groceries as well and so the effect of

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the tax was not to cause teenagers to

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become more healthy the effect of the

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tax was to shut down grocery stores in

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Philadelphia

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well they should have just banned the

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sugary drinks like Bloomberg wanted to

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do in New York of course I remember his

277
00:10:58,009 --> 00:10:55,399
rule it was nothing more than 16 ounces

278
00:11:01,850 --> 00:10:58,019
but you were permitted to buy more than

279
00:11:04,490 --> 00:11:01,860
one it's like uh I think I see a hole in

280
00:11:07,910 --> 00:11:04,500
this policy right this law which I think

281
00:11:10,009 --> 00:11:07,920
never came into effect to begin with but

282
00:11:11,449 --> 00:11:10,019
um and and one one of the problems you

283
00:11:13,430 --> 00:11:11,459
have with that and they had this in New

284
00:11:15,410 --> 00:11:13,440
York City is any time the government

285
00:11:18,949 --> 00:11:15,420
steps in with its coercive Force like

286
00:11:21,769 --> 00:11:18,959
that it's a siren Call to to businesses

287
00:11:24,290 --> 00:11:21,779
to Lobby government for exception

288
00:11:26,750 --> 00:11:24,300
and Starbucks did this and they got an

289
00:11:29,810 --> 00:11:26,760
exception for their frappuccino that had

290
00:11:31,970 --> 00:11:29,820
more sugar in it than the sodas did and

291
00:11:33,650 --> 00:11:31,980
yet the soldiers were were on this

292
00:11:36,410 --> 00:11:33,660
banned list and the Frappuccino wasn't

293
00:11:37,430 --> 00:11:36,420
because why Starbucks had some in with

294
00:11:39,650 --> 00:11:37,440
the mayor

295
00:11:41,569 --> 00:11:39,660
yeah I've always said The more rules and

296
00:11:43,850 --> 00:11:41,579
regulations you have the more reason

297
00:11:45,829 --> 00:11:43,860
there is for private Enterprise to try

298
00:11:48,290 --> 00:11:45,839
to uh

299
00:11:50,389 --> 00:11:48,300
um you know hire lobbyists and so on and

300
00:11:51,710 --> 00:11:50,399
convince government to create special

301
00:11:54,290 --> 00:11:51,720
rules for them

302
00:11:55,490 --> 00:11:54,300
yeah yeah you're absolutely right and I

303
00:11:58,370 --> 00:11:55,500
think that's important to keep in mind

304
00:12:01,490 --> 00:11:58,380
that entrepreneurs what they do is they

305
00:12:02,930 --> 00:12:01,500
look to make profit and normally how

306
00:12:05,930 --> 00:12:02,940
does an entrepreneur entrepreneur make

307
00:12:07,670 --> 00:12:05,940
profit by delivering to customers things

308
00:12:10,069 --> 00:12:07,680
customers want

309
00:12:11,930 --> 00:12:10,079
now when the government imposes itself

310
00:12:14,449 --> 00:12:11,940
all of a sudden it becomes a new

311
00:12:15,889 --> 00:12:14,459
entrepreneurial Target the entrepreneur

312
00:12:18,110 --> 00:12:15,899
realizes wait a minute there's another

313
00:12:20,690 --> 00:12:18,120
way to make money now it's by delivering

314
00:12:21,949 --> 00:12:20,700
to politicians what politicians want and

315
00:12:23,750 --> 00:12:21,959
what happens is that entrepreneur's

316
00:12:25,850 --> 00:12:23,760
attention turns away from the consumers

317
00:12:28,850 --> 00:12:25,860
from satisfying consumers towards

318
00:12:31,190 --> 00:12:28,860
satisfying politicians and bureaucrats

319
00:12:33,530 --> 00:12:31,200
so I would think covet is the perfect

320
00:12:35,750 --> 00:12:33,540
kind of test case for this theory of

321
00:12:37,730 --> 00:12:35,760
cooperation or coercion because we've

322
00:12:40,430 --> 00:12:37,740
got 50 different states kind of handling

323
00:12:42,170 --> 00:12:40,440
things slightly differently all deciding

324
00:12:45,350 --> 00:12:42,180
whether there's going to be a mask

325
00:12:47,150 --> 00:12:45,360
mandate versus voluntary is there going

326
00:12:48,470 --> 00:12:47,160
to be a vaccination mandate versus

327
00:12:50,269 --> 00:12:48,480
voluntary I know here in California

328
00:12:52,190 --> 00:12:50,279
University of California has just

329
00:12:55,250 --> 00:12:52,200
announced that if you want to go to

330
00:12:59,150 --> 00:12:55,260
school in the fall you must be

331
00:13:01,850 --> 00:12:59,160
vaccinated so how do you analyze covid

332
00:13:04,310 --> 00:13:01,860
on the cooperation and coercion scale

333
00:13:08,269 --> 00:13:04,320
yeah that's covert is a really hard one

334
00:13:10,370 --> 00:13:08,279
because it contains elements of both one

335
00:13:13,790 --> 00:13:10,380
of the problems that we had with with

336
00:13:17,990 --> 00:13:13,800
how we address covid is that there there

337
00:13:20,449 --> 00:13:18,000
was this asymmetry that if on the one

338
00:13:23,629 --> 00:13:20,459
hand politicians didn't do something

339
00:13:25,129 --> 00:13:23,639
drastic and people died everyone would

340
00:13:27,290 --> 00:13:25,139
everyone would be able to point to that

341
00:13:28,930 --> 00:13:27,300
and say look these people died because

342
00:13:31,790 --> 00:13:28,940
you politicians you didn't do anything

343
00:13:33,350 --> 00:13:31,800
on the other hand if the politicians did

344
00:13:35,750 --> 00:13:33,360
too much and businesses started to go

345
00:13:37,550 --> 00:13:35,760
out of business yet people will see that

346
00:13:39,710 --> 00:13:37,560
but it's a little bit harder to connect

347
00:13:41,329 --> 00:13:39,720
that to the politician you can always

348
00:13:43,730 --> 00:13:41,339
say well yeah but this business was

349
00:13:45,710 --> 00:13:43,740
going to go out of business anyway and

350
00:13:49,250 --> 00:13:45,720
and so the politicians had an incentive

351
00:13:51,470 --> 00:13:49,260
to err on the side of doing too much and

352
00:13:53,090 --> 00:13:51,480
so they didn't you know New York City is

353
00:13:54,710 --> 00:13:53,100
a beautiful example of this well

354
00:13:56,990 --> 00:13:54,720
beautiful if you want to use that word

355
00:13:59,569 --> 00:13:57,000
it is an example of the government going

356
00:14:01,490 --> 00:13:59,579
way too far of shutting down things and

357
00:14:03,530 --> 00:14:01,500
making the restrictions so onerous that

358
00:14:05,689 --> 00:14:03,540
in your City they lost something on the

359
00:14:08,090 --> 00:14:05,699
order of one-third of small businesses

360
00:14:09,590 --> 00:14:08,100
due to these uh to the coveted shutdown

361
00:14:12,829 --> 00:14:09,600
the Congressional budget office

362
00:14:14,449 --> 00:14:12,839
estimates that covet shutdown cost us

363
00:14:16,550 --> 00:14:14,459
somewhere in the neighborhood of 10

364
00:14:19,910 --> 00:14:16,560
trillion dollars over the course of the

365
00:14:22,370 --> 00:14:19,920
next decade and we didn't spend enough

366
00:14:23,930 --> 00:14:22,380
time I say we the government the

367
00:14:27,470 --> 00:14:23,940
government didn't spend enough time

368
00:14:29,990 --> 00:14:27,480
thinking through carefully the the cost

369
00:14:31,850 --> 00:14:30,000
on the dollar side of covid all they did

370
00:14:34,069 --> 00:14:31,860
was they look at they looked at lives

371
00:14:36,650 --> 00:14:34,079
lost and what did they do they used

372
00:14:39,769 --> 00:14:36,660
their coercive Force they said okay our

373
00:14:42,530 --> 00:14:39,779
goal is to save lives it doesn't matter

374
00:14:45,470 --> 00:14:42,540
how much it costs well if you had left

375
00:14:47,629 --> 00:14:45,480
things to The Cooperative side of our

376
00:14:50,569 --> 00:14:47,639
society you probably would have gotten a

377
00:14:53,090 --> 00:14:50,579
different answer because every day each

378
00:14:55,189 --> 00:14:53,100
one of us plays a trade-off between

379
00:14:57,230 --> 00:14:55,199
safety and some benefit that we're

380
00:15:00,170 --> 00:14:57,240
looking to obtain we're used to doing

381
00:15:02,689 --> 00:15:00,180
that politicians not so much

382
00:15:04,430 --> 00:15:02,699
yeah the I the thing I was liking to do

383
00:15:08,329 --> 00:15:04,440
and I think others have also is the

384
00:15:12,829 --> 00:15:08,339
speed limit on the roads and you know it

385
00:15:14,810 --> 00:15:12,839
set at 55 65 70 and clearly people die

386
00:15:17,269 --> 00:15:14,820
because of speed but the government

387
00:15:19,189 --> 00:15:17,279
decided that the utility of having that

388
00:15:21,490 --> 00:15:19,199
speed as far as people moving about

389
00:15:25,310 --> 00:15:21,500
Goods moving about Etc

390
00:15:27,230 --> 00:15:25,320
outweigh the the health risks of it

391
00:15:29,810 --> 00:15:27,240
including right yes so there's some type

392
00:15:32,210 --> 00:15:29,820
of measurement was done there to set the

393
00:15:34,009 --> 00:15:32,220
speed limit where it's set if all your

394
00:15:35,509 --> 00:15:34,019
focus was was saving lives the speed

395
00:15:38,269 --> 00:15:35,519
limit would probably be around 25 miles

396
00:15:41,990 --> 00:15:38,279
per hour oh yeah yeah right but yet

397
00:15:42,949 --> 00:15:42,000
politicians have allowed these deaths to

398
00:15:45,889 --> 00:15:42,959
occur

399
00:15:48,410 --> 00:15:45,899
in exchange for the utility of the

400
00:15:50,090 --> 00:15:48,420
higher speed rate whereas with covid it

401
00:15:52,550 --> 00:15:50,100
seems like there's no balancing

402
00:15:54,710 --> 00:15:52,560
whatsoever it's all about I think Cuomo

403
00:15:57,110 --> 00:15:54,720
was asked at one point you know what

404
00:15:59,150 --> 00:15:57,120
what's the value of a life you know as

405
00:16:01,670 --> 00:15:59,160
you think about covet and he said a life

406
00:16:03,350 --> 00:16:01,680
is priceless like yeah well that's a

407
00:16:06,350 --> 00:16:03,360
nice thing to say as a politician but

408
00:16:08,150 --> 00:16:06,360
the truth is we put value on life all

409
00:16:10,009 --> 00:16:08,160
the time as you make decisions regarding

410
00:16:10,850 --> 00:16:10,019
government regulations and and you have

411
00:16:13,790 --> 00:16:10,860
to

412
00:16:16,189 --> 00:16:13,800
yeah and we each one of us puts a value

413
00:16:17,930 --> 00:16:16,199
on our life every day when we decide to

414
00:16:19,490 --> 00:16:17,940
walk up and down a flight of stairs or

415
00:16:21,470 --> 00:16:19,500
across the street or eat solid food

416
00:16:23,990 --> 00:16:21,480
every one of these things represents

417
00:16:25,850 --> 00:16:24,000
some risk to us and we make a

418
00:16:28,069 --> 00:16:25,860
calculation we say yeah the risk is

419
00:16:29,569 --> 00:16:28,079
worth it or we say no the risk isn't I

420
00:16:30,769 --> 00:16:29,579
want to go back to the speed limit for a

421
00:16:34,009 --> 00:16:30,779
minute because that's a really good

422
00:16:37,009 --> 00:16:34,019
example of of something that sits kind

423
00:16:40,129 --> 00:16:37,019
of in both the the range of cooperation

424
00:16:42,170 --> 00:16:40,139
in in the range of coercion and that is

425
00:16:43,490 --> 00:16:42,180
yeah we have these speed limits and

426
00:16:45,769 --> 00:16:43,500
that's coercion it's the government

427
00:16:48,650 --> 00:16:45,779
saying you will do the following things

428
00:16:50,410 --> 00:16:48,660
but what happens as long as I've been

429
00:16:53,329 --> 00:16:50,420
driving in several decades of driving

430
00:16:55,009 --> 00:16:53,339
I've noticed that pretty much no one

431
00:16:57,050 --> 00:16:55,019
obeys the speed limit

432
00:16:58,730 --> 00:16:57,060
pretty pretty much no matter where I go

433
00:17:00,350 --> 00:16:58,740
whatever the state is or whatever the

434
00:17:02,569 --> 00:17:00,360
decade is we're talking about people

435
00:17:03,949 --> 00:17:02,579
tend to drive about 10 to 15 miles an

436
00:17:06,230 --> 00:17:03,959
hour faster than the speed limit

437
00:17:08,809 --> 00:17:06,240
whatever the speed limit is and what are

438
00:17:11,449 --> 00:17:08,819
they doing that's a that's cooperation

439
00:17:13,130 --> 00:17:11,459
they have decided that this is a safe

440
00:17:15,529 --> 00:17:13,140
speed to drive and we're all going to do

441
00:17:17,150 --> 00:17:15,539
this and the only time we slam on our

442
00:17:18,890 --> 00:17:17,160
brakes is when we see the cops sitting

443
00:17:20,210 --> 00:17:18,900
behind the sign up there because we all

444
00:17:22,370 --> 00:17:20,220
know we're going to get a ticket but

445
00:17:24,890 --> 00:17:22,380
what happens is we made this we perform

446
00:17:26,809 --> 00:17:24,900
this calculation the trade-off of

447
00:17:29,450 --> 00:17:26,819
getting where I need to go versus the

448
00:17:30,650 --> 00:17:29,460
risk and we made it we came up with a

449
00:17:32,150 --> 00:17:30,660
different number than what the

450
00:17:33,890 --> 00:17:32,160
politicians came up with and

451
00:17:35,870 --> 00:17:33,900
consistently the number we tend to come

452
00:17:38,750 --> 00:17:35,880
up with is about 10 to 15 miles an hour

453
00:17:40,909 --> 00:17:38,760
faster than what the politicians say

454
00:17:43,490 --> 00:17:40,919
so now that you've written this book and

455
00:17:46,970 --> 00:17:43,500
you're an expert on this cooperation

456
00:17:50,330 --> 00:17:46,980
versus coercion and those Concepts

457
00:17:52,250 --> 00:17:50,340
um as you look at covid and how if you

458
00:17:54,770 --> 00:17:52,260
were the governor what would you have

459
00:17:58,850 --> 00:17:54,780
been implementing when it comes to covet

460
00:18:02,270 --> 00:17:58,860
yeah yeah that's a good question I one

461
00:18:04,310 --> 00:18:02,280
of the problems here is that in and we

462
00:18:07,190 --> 00:18:04,320
kind of knew this in more in retrospect

463
00:18:08,570 --> 00:18:07,200
is that covet really seems not to be one

464
00:18:11,210 --> 00:18:08,580
disease but two

465
00:18:13,310 --> 00:18:11,220
it affects the elderly very very

466
00:18:17,090 --> 00:18:13,320
differently than it affects the Young

467
00:18:19,850 --> 00:18:17,100
and and what did we do we imposed a rule

468
00:18:22,669 --> 00:18:19,860
you know pretty much Coast to Coast to

469
00:18:24,409 --> 00:18:22,679
applying to all people when we should

470
00:18:26,029 --> 00:18:24,419
have been if if we're going to use

471
00:18:27,710 --> 00:18:26,039
coercion we should have been focused on

472
00:18:30,230 --> 00:18:27,720
the elderly those are the people that

473
00:18:32,930 --> 00:18:30,240
were most at risk and

474
00:18:34,490 --> 00:18:32,940
what works in New York City is not

475
00:18:36,409 --> 00:18:34,500
necessarily going to work in West

476
00:18:39,470 --> 00:18:36,419
Virginia Which and that may not work out

477
00:18:41,990 --> 00:18:39,480
in Oklahoma so to the extent that we

478
00:18:44,890 --> 00:18:42,000
could we tended to do this we pushed the

479
00:18:47,690 --> 00:18:44,900
decision-making to low levels let let

480
00:18:51,350 --> 00:18:47,700
Mayors make decisions for their cities

481
00:18:53,630 --> 00:18:51,360
for their areas and and because they

482
00:18:55,970 --> 00:18:53,640
know better what their circumstances are

483
00:18:58,250 --> 00:18:55,980
than do perhaps the governors and

484
00:19:01,010 --> 00:18:58,260
certainly more than the president so in

485
00:19:03,110 --> 00:19:01,020
that sense we tended to do we tended to

486
00:19:04,669 --> 00:19:03,120
deal with covid a little bit better in

487
00:19:07,789 --> 00:19:04,679
that we dealt with it at the low level

488
00:19:09,710 --> 00:19:07,799
but again what we didn't do was break it

489
00:19:11,870 --> 00:19:09,720
out and deal with the elderly different

490
00:19:14,150 --> 00:19:11,880
than we dealt with the young I just came

491
00:19:15,529 --> 00:19:14,160
back from from a trip I'm on a plane and

492
00:19:16,970 --> 00:19:15,539
of course we've got this Federal rule

493
00:19:18,529 --> 00:19:16,980
everybody has to have the mask on

494
00:19:19,789 --> 00:19:18,539
anytime you're in the airport when

495
00:19:22,250 --> 00:19:19,799
you're on the plane I'm thinking this is

496
00:19:24,650 --> 00:19:22,260
ridiculous it's like security theater at

497
00:19:26,029 --> 00:19:24,660
the TSA it's virus theater right we all

498
00:19:27,890 --> 00:19:26,039
look good because you know we've got

499
00:19:29,390 --> 00:19:27,900
these masks and so forth but in fact

500
00:19:31,250 --> 00:19:29,400
what's going to happen the minute every

501
00:19:33,110 --> 00:19:31,260
one of us steps out of airport The Masks

502
00:19:35,930 --> 00:19:33,120
come off and we're going to be you know

503
00:19:38,870 --> 00:19:35,940
mixing around with with people and and

504
00:19:41,450 --> 00:19:38,880
so what you get is this rule that

505
00:19:43,490 --> 00:19:41,460
somehow makes it look like politicians

506
00:19:45,770 --> 00:19:43,500
are doing something to protect us when

507
00:19:48,590 --> 00:19:45,780
in fact the rule isn't accomplishing

508
00:19:50,930 --> 00:19:48,600
much of anything well it all starts with

509
00:19:53,630 --> 00:19:50,940
the concept of you know should the

510
00:19:56,570 --> 00:19:53,640
government be involved in health to

511
00:19:59,029 --> 00:19:56,580
begin with I mean raging debate

512
00:20:00,770 --> 00:19:59,039
all of the industrialized countries as

513
00:20:03,350 --> 00:20:00,780
Bernie Sanders likes to say you know

514
00:20:05,090 --> 00:20:03,360
have you know health care for all we're

515
00:20:06,350 --> 00:20:05,100
the only one that doesn't I'm like well

516
00:20:09,110 --> 00:20:06,360
and we're also the most successful

517
00:20:11,750 --> 00:20:09,120
country in general so maybe there's a

518
00:20:14,029 --> 00:20:11,760
correlation there I'm not sure we should

519
00:20:16,370 --> 00:20:14,039
follow everything that the Europeans are

520
00:20:18,529 --> 00:20:16,380
doing but um it just begs the question

521
00:20:21,049 --> 00:20:18,539
is what is the role of government when

522
00:20:25,549 --> 00:20:21,059
it comes to people's health

523
00:20:27,110 --> 00:20:25,559
yeah and I think when we look at when

524
00:20:29,029 --> 00:20:27,120
Bernie Sanders does things like they'll

525
00:20:31,010 --> 00:20:29,039
point to Sweden or point to Norway or

526
00:20:34,669 --> 00:20:31,020
Denmark or whatever it is one of the

527
00:20:37,730 --> 00:20:34,679
things we forget is that those countries

528
00:20:40,370 --> 00:20:37,740
are actually the size of U.S states

529
00:20:43,490 --> 00:20:40,380
and so if Bernie Sanders really wants to

530
00:20:45,470 --> 00:20:43,500
do Health Care the way that Europe does

531
00:20:47,750 --> 00:20:45,480
health care then what he should be doing

532
00:20:50,750 --> 00:20:47,760
is backing the federal government out of

533
00:20:53,330 --> 00:20:50,760
it and allowing the individual states to

534
00:20:55,010 --> 00:20:53,340
design their own Health Care Systems but

535
00:20:57,289 --> 00:20:55,020
but even there it raises the question

536
00:21:00,470 --> 00:20:57,299
what role does does a state have in

537
00:21:02,470 --> 00:21:00,480
health care and I think that we tend to

538
00:21:05,149 --> 00:21:02,480
use the coercion

539
00:21:07,190 --> 00:21:05,159
more than than is necessary and I'll

540
00:21:08,990 --> 00:21:07,200
give you a good example this the FDA we

541
00:21:11,149 --> 00:21:09,000
have the FDA and people you know rightly

542
00:21:13,490 --> 00:21:11,159
say yeah we the FDA protects us against

543
00:21:16,669 --> 00:21:13,500
bad drugs but notice it does so

544
00:21:19,130 --> 00:21:16,679
coercively so if there's a drug out here

545
00:21:21,409 --> 00:21:19,140
and um it can't go on to Market until it

546
00:21:22,789 --> 00:21:21,419
gets FDA approval if somebody tries to

547
00:21:24,830 --> 00:21:22,799
sell it you know all kinds of bad things

548
00:21:28,130 --> 00:21:24,840
happen to them that's the coercion but

549
00:21:30,289 --> 00:21:28,140
imagine if we did FDA cooperatively

550
00:21:32,029 --> 00:21:30,299
what would happen is the FDA would do

551
00:21:33,950 --> 00:21:32,039
all of the things it currently does it

552
00:21:35,510 --> 00:21:33,960
would test drugs and it would make

553
00:21:37,370 --> 00:21:35,520
pronouncements about them and put a

554
00:21:40,610 --> 00:21:37,380
sticker on it and say this drug is FDA

555
00:21:42,770 --> 00:21:40,620
approved and this one is not but if we

556
00:21:45,710 --> 00:21:42,780
allowed all the drugs to be sold whether

557
00:21:47,870 --> 00:21:45,720
FDA approved or not notice something

558
00:21:49,970 --> 00:21:47,880
interesting would happen people who

559
00:21:52,669 --> 00:21:49,980
really value FDA approval they could

560
00:21:55,730 --> 00:21:52,679
still go and only buy FDA approved drugs

561
00:21:57,770 --> 00:21:55,740
other people who have um you know

562
00:21:59,810 --> 00:21:57,780
perhaps diseases of which they're going

563
00:22:01,730 --> 00:21:59,820
to die and of which there's no cure and

564
00:22:04,250 --> 00:22:01,740
there's an experimental drug that's come

565
00:22:06,529 --> 00:22:04,260
out in the market they may be more apt

566
00:22:09,289 --> 00:22:06,539
to select a non-fda approved drug

567
00:22:12,470 --> 00:22:09,299
because they don't have much hope to do

568
00:22:14,750 --> 00:22:12,480
anything else that option of of working

569
00:22:16,669 --> 00:22:14,760
cooperatively and saying yeah I'm going

570
00:22:18,590 --> 00:22:16,679
to do this even though there's high risk

571
00:22:20,210 --> 00:22:18,600
to it we don't give people that option

572
00:22:22,549 --> 00:22:20,220
in this country because we tend to do

573
00:22:24,610 --> 00:22:22,559
Health Care in a coercive fashion rather

574
00:22:27,289 --> 00:22:24,620
than a Cooperative fashion

575
00:22:28,909 --> 00:22:27,299
yeah I mean as long as there's free

576
00:22:31,430 --> 00:22:28,919
information out there for people to make

577
00:22:33,049 --> 00:22:31,440
their own decisions then I think that's

578
00:22:34,310 --> 00:22:33,059
a brilliant idea to Simply make the

579
00:22:36,649 --> 00:22:34,320
information available and let people

580
00:22:39,770 --> 00:22:36,659
make their own decision regarding their

581
00:22:43,010 --> 00:22:39,780
own health which again nothing screams

582
00:22:45,710 --> 00:22:43,020
out personal freedom and liberty than my

583
00:22:47,450 --> 00:22:45,720
own health and deciding how I'm going to

584
00:22:49,130 --> 00:22:47,460
take care of myself and what I'm going

585
00:22:52,310 --> 00:22:49,140
to put into my body

586
00:22:54,230 --> 00:22:52,320
yeah and I think there you stumble upon

587
00:22:56,149 --> 00:22:54,240
a vision of government that I think both

588
00:22:58,970 --> 00:22:56,159
the left and the right could probably

589
00:23:01,130 --> 00:22:58,980
agree with and that is

590
00:23:03,409 --> 00:23:01,140
let the government collect this

591
00:23:05,510 --> 00:23:03,419
information and disseminate it and say

592
00:23:07,850 --> 00:23:05,520
you know we say this thing is good or we

593
00:23:10,250 --> 00:23:07,860
say this thing is not good but leave it

594
00:23:12,470 --> 00:23:10,260
up to you to make the decision as to

595
00:23:14,510 --> 00:23:12,480
what it is you want to do and people who

596
00:23:16,909 --> 00:23:14,520
are more more comfortable with

597
00:23:18,169 --> 00:23:16,919
government edicts can do what the

598
00:23:21,350 --> 00:23:18,179
government says those who are less

599
00:23:23,090 --> 00:23:21,360
comfortable can cannot is provided that

600
00:23:25,669 --> 00:23:23,100
nobody's imposing harm on anyone else

601
00:23:27,529 --> 00:23:25,679
yeah so going back to covid you could

602
00:23:29,570 --> 00:23:27,539
say the same thing there government

603
00:23:30,830 --> 00:23:29,580
provide all the information about covid

604
00:23:33,710 --> 00:23:30,840
and let everybody make their own

605
00:23:36,470 --> 00:23:33,720
decision as to what level of risk they

606
00:23:38,450 --> 00:23:36,480
want to take yeah that looks that looks

607
00:23:40,970 --> 00:23:38,460
about right now there's a there's a foot

608
00:23:43,310 --> 00:23:40,980
an important footnote with covid and

609
00:23:44,570 --> 00:23:43,320
that is Coveted of course is a disease

610
00:23:48,350 --> 00:23:44,580
it's communicable

611
00:23:51,230 --> 00:23:48,360
and any communicable disease starts to

612
00:23:53,269 --> 00:23:51,240
look like pollution and we've already

613
00:23:54,529 --> 00:23:53,279
said you know one pro appropriate role

614
00:23:56,690 --> 00:23:54,539
for government is to prevent pollution

615
00:23:58,730 --> 00:23:56,700
to stop you from dumping trash in my

616
00:24:00,350 --> 00:23:58,740
yard or stop me from you know emitting

617
00:24:02,510 --> 00:24:00,360
stuff into the environment because

618
00:24:05,750 --> 00:24:02,520
that's imposing harm on someone

619
00:24:08,810 --> 00:24:05,760
if I walk around in public and I'm

620
00:24:10,490 --> 00:24:08,820
infectious I'm imposing harm on others

621
00:24:12,830 --> 00:24:10,500
in the same way I'm I'm emitting this

622
00:24:15,289 --> 00:24:12,840
pollution and so it at least raises the

623
00:24:17,690 --> 00:24:15,299
question it's possible that there is a

624
00:24:21,169 --> 00:24:17,700
role for government here on the coercive

625
00:24:23,690 --> 00:24:21,179
side however I would suppose that that

626
00:24:26,330 --> 00:24:23,700
role is much more limited than the role

627
00:24:28,610 --> 00:24:26,340
it actually took uh in in dealing with

628
00:24:31,190 --> 00:24:28,620
covid yeah and I think it comes down to

629
00:24:33,110 --> 00:24:31,200
how much you value individual liberty

630
00:24:37,490 --> 00:24:33,120
versus kind of the collective and that's

631
00:24:40,850 --> 00:24:37,500
kind of the left versus right divide and

632
00:24:43,669 --> 00:24:40,860
um you know if you put maximum value on

633
00:24:44,990 --> 00:24:43,679
individual Freedom you'll say that you

634
00:24:46,850 --> 00:24:45,000
know okay yeah maybe we'll put

635
00:24:49,730 --> 00:24:46,860
restrictions in place that deal with the

636
00:24:51,169 --> 00:24:49,740
elderly as opposed to everyone

637
00:24:53,210 --> 00:24:51,179
um or we'll put restrictions in place

638
00:24:56,390 --> 00:24:53,220
that apply to people who actually have

639
00:25:00,409 --> 00:24:56,400
covid as opposed to just blanket

640
00:25:01,909 --> 00:25:00,419
everywhere right right um but but how

641
00:25:04,789 --> 00:25:01,919
are we going to bring the left and the

642
00:25:06,769 --> 00:25:04,799
right together on things like this when

643
00:25:08,330 --> 00:25:06,779
you have such disagreement I think on

644
00:25:10,190 --> 00:25:08,340
that basic concepts of individual

645
00:25:13,010 --> 00:25:10,200
liberty where it seems like the left

646
00:25:15,830 --> 00:25:13,020
puts more value on the collective and

647
00:25:18,169 --> 00:25:15,840
protecting everyone equally whereas the

648
00:25:19,310 --> 00:25:18,179
right says No it should all be about the

649
00:25:21,470 --> 00:25:19,320
individual

650
00:25:23,570 --> 00:25:21,480
yeah and that's the million dollar

651
00:25:25,610 --> 00:25:23,580
question you know how do you bring these

652
00:25:26,990 --> 00:25:25,620
two groups together I don't know I don't

653
00:25:30,110 --> 00:25:27,000
know that we could bring them together

654
00:25:31,909 --> 00:25:30,120
on a topic like covid but I think there

655
00:25:34,190 --> 00:25:31,919
are many topics that we could bring them

656
00:25:37,430 --> 00:25:34,200
together on the FDA example I gave you

657
00:25:40,310 --> 00:25:37,440
is one of them and and to the extent

658
00:25:43,010 --> 00:25:40,320
that we can find topics like that where

659
00:25:45,289 --> 00:25:43,020
there is a way that that we can appeal

660
00:25:47,570 --> 00:25:45,299
to both sides at the same time I think

661
00:25:49,490 --> 00:25:47,580
something important happens and that is

662
00:25:51,890 --> 00:25:49,500
the two sides start to trust each other

663
00:25:54,230 --> 00:25:51,900
and you don't immediately get this

664
00:25:56,029 --> 00:25:54,240
knee-jerk reaction of well you're on

665
00:25:58,070 --> 00:25:56,039
you're on the opposite side so you're an

666
00:26:00,950 --> 00:25:58,080
idiot or you just hate the poor whatever

667
00:26:02,870 --> 00:26:00,960
it is and that's been going on for so

668
00:26:05,450 --> 00:26:02,880
long that we've stopped talking to each

669
00:26:07,610 --> 00:26:05,460
other and I think the right has a lot of

670
00:26:08,930 --> 00:26:07,620
really good answers to problems I think

671
00:26:11,390 --> 00:26:08,940
there are other problems in which the

672
00:26:13,789 --> 00:26:11,400
left has some decent answers but we

673
00:26:15,289 --> 00:26:13,799
don't get we don't get the hybrid of the

674
00:26:17,870 --> 00:26:15,299
two answers because we never come

675
00:26:20,570 --> 00:26:17,880
together and talk civilly to each other

676
00:26:21,649 --> 00:26:20,580
yeah well one of the high level ways of

677
00:26:23,029 --> 00:26:21,659
describing that and I think you talk

678
00:26:25,669 --> 00:26:23,039
about this in the book is positive

679
00:26:27,590 --> 00:26:25,679
rights versus negative rights right yeah

680
00:26:29,390 --> 00:26:27,600
and and I think that there's a divide

681
00:26:31,310 --> 00:26:29,400
between the two sides on whether

682
00:26:33,470 --> 00:26:31,320
governments should be issuing positive

683
00:26:36,049 --> 00:26:33,480
versus but explain that concept and then

684
00:26:38,750 --> 00:26:36,059
let's get into that yeah so the the idea

685
00:26:41,090 --> 00:26:38,760
is is kind of simple a negative right is

686
00:26:43,549 --> 00:26:41,100
the right um the right not to be

687
00:26:45,830 --> 00:26:43,559
interfered with so my freedom of speech

688
00:26:47,269 --> 00:26:45,840
is a negative right that you I have the

689
00:26:49,730 --> 00:26:47,279
right that you don't interfere with my

690
00:26:52,430 --> 00:26:49,740
speech a positive right is the right to

691
00:26:53,930 --> 00:26:52,440
have something done for you so health

692
00:26:55,370 --> 00:26:53,940
care if you want to talk about health

693
00:26:57,169 --> 00:26:55,380
care is a positive right that means that

694
00:26:59,330 --> 00:26:57,179
the government has a step in and provide

695
00:27:00,769 --> 00:26:59,340
health care for me in some fashion so

696
00:27:02,570 --> 00:27:00,779
positive rights and negative rights and

697
00:27:04,130 --> 00:27:02,580
one of the problems here we talk about

698
00:27:06,529 --> 00:27:04,140
the miscommunication between the left

699
00:27:09,409 --> 00:27:06,539
and the right is that we both use that

700
00:27:12,289 --> 00:27:09,419
term right but we mean very different

701
00:27:15,049 --> 00:27:12,299
things when the when the when people on

702
00:27:16,909 --> 00:27:15,059
the political Right Use the term right

703
00:27:19,130 --> 00:27:16,919
what they tend to mean are negative

704
00:27:21,350 --> 00:27:19,140
rights people on the left tend to mean

705
00:27:23,029 --> 00:27:21,360
positive rights and yet they're using

706
00:27:25,549 --> 00:27:23,039
this this same word but meaning very

707
00:27:28,310 --> 00:27:25,559
meaning very different things and the

708
00:27:30,590 --> 00:27:28,320
two types of rights are the difference

709
00:27:32,510 --> 00:27:30,600
is really important with negative rights

710
00:27:34,490 --> 00:27:32,520
you can have the exact same negative

711
00:27:37,130 --> 00:27:34,500
rights that I have and we can both enjoy

712
00:27:40,130 --> 00:27:37,140
them fully why because all that has to

713
00:27:42,950 --> 00:27:40,140
happen is that nobody interferes with us

714
00:27:45,769 --> 00:27:42,960
with positive rights we can't both have

715
00:27:47,690 --> 00:27:45,779
those same rights fully if we both have

716
00:27:50,090 --> 00:27:47,700
a right to Health Care well there's only

717
00:27:51,649 --> 00:27:50,100
so much health care and if you take some

718
00:27:53,210 --> 00:27:51,659
of it that's less of it that I can have

719
00:27:55,010 --> 00:27:53,220
and if I have more of it that's less of

720
00:27:58,010 --> 00:27:55,020
it that you could have and so we can't

721
00:28:00,590 --> 00:27:58,020
we cannot both exercise positive rights

722
00:28:02,230 --> 00:28:00,600
together in the same way like we can

723
00:28:05,330 --> 00:28:02,240
with negative rights

724
00:28:07,070 --> 00:28:05,340
and ultimately then how do you analyze

725
00:28:10,789 --> 00:28:07,080
whether government should be in the

726
00:28:13,310 --> 00:28:10,799
business of positive rights guaranteeing

727
00:28:15,409 --> 00:28:13,320
things for people yeah almost never

728
00:28:17,570 --> 00:28:15,419
Almost Never Should the government be in

729
00:28:19,010 --> 00:28:17,580
dealing with positive rights in fact if

730
00:28:21,289 --> 00:28:19,020
you go back to the founding in this

731
00:28:23,630 --> 00:28:21,299
country in the founding documents when

732
00:28:26,389 --> 00:28:23,640
the founders talk about rights they

733
00:28:28,310 --> 00:28:26,399
always mean negative rights The only

734
00:28:30,110 --> 00:28:28,320
positive right I think that is ever

735
00:28:31,490 --> 00:28:30,120
mentioned is the right to a trial by

736
00:28:33,230 --> 00:28:31,500
jury

737
00:28:35,090 --> 00:28:33,240
other than that everything is all about

738
00:28:37,070 --> 00:28:35,100
the negative rights and and part of the

739
00:28:40,370 --> 00:28:37,080
reason for this is because the founders

740
00:28:42,529 --> 00:28:40,380
had a an image of a limited government

741
00:28:44,990 --> 00:28:42,539
with negative rights there's nothing

742
00:28:47,029 --> 00:28:45,000
there to cause government to grow why

743
00:28:49,010 --> 00:28:47,039
because to protect your negative rights

744
00:28:50,570 --> 00:28:49,020
all we have to do is not interfere with

745
00:28:52,310 --> 00:28:50,580
you it caused it calls for the

746
00:28:53,269 --> 00:28:52,320
government to step back and not do

747
00:28:54,889 --> 00:28:53,279
things

748
00:28:56,870 --> 00:28:54,899
positive rights call for the government

749
00:28:58,669 --> 00:28:56,880
to actively do things and so you talk

750
00:29:01,070 --> 00:28:58,679
about a right to health care and a right

751
00:29:04,190 --> 00:29:01,080
to education a right to a retirement

752
00:29:05,990 --> 00:29:04,200
every one of those things requires that

753
00:29:09,049 --> 00:29:06,000
the government grow larger and larger

754
00:29:11,450 --> 00:29:09,059
because it needs to provide these things

755
00:29:15,590 --> 00:29:11,460
but didn't that create the situation of

756
00:29:17,990 --> 00:29:15,600
the the robber barons of around 1900 and

757
00:29:20,330 --> 00:29:18,000
government need to step in because they

758
00:29:21,710 --> 00:29:20,340
were taking advantage of child labor and

759
00:29:33,830 --> 00:29:21,720
and

760
00:29:35,510 --> 00:29:33,840
the the acronym escapes me but there is

761
00:29:37,730 --> 00:29:35,520
a the law that was passed about that

762
00:29:39,409 --> 00:29:37,740
time and people point to it and say yeah

763
00:29:41,450 --> 00:29:39,419
it's the federal government to put an

764
00:29:43,010 --> 00:29:41,460
end to to the 40-hour work we could put

765
00:29:45,529 --> 00:29:43,020
an end to child labor all of the sorts

766
00:29:47,450 --> 00:29:45,539
of things if you look at the data which

767
00:29:49,370 --> 00:29:47,460
I've done I picked this stuff out and

768
00:29:51,049 --> 00:29:49,380
this is government data right if you

769
00:29:53,570 --> 00:29:51,059
look at the data what you find is that

770
00:29:56,510 --> 00:29:53,580
the incidence of child labor in the U.S

771
00:29:59,029 --> 00:29:56,520
was falling precipitously in fact it

772
00:30:02,090 --> 00:29:59,039
fell to pretty much from whatever it was

773
00:30:05,269 --> 00:30:02,100
60 down to like three percent

774
00:30:07,850 --> 00:30:05,279
before the federal government's law ever

775
00:30:10,549 --> 00:30:07,860
came about so too with the 40-hour work

776
00:30:13,310 --> 00:30:10,559
week we were at whatever it was 50 hours

777
00:30:15,889 --> 00:30:13,320
plus and that fell to 40 hours actually

778
00:30:18,110 --> 00:30:15,899
fell below 40 hours and then the federal

779
00:30:20,269 --> 00:30:18,120
government passed this law so in both of

780
00:30:23,330 --> 00:30:20,279
those instances it was very much a

781
00:30:25,549 --> 00:30:23,340
matter of through cooperation we were

782
00:30:27,710 --> 00:30:25,559
already moving in that direction the

783
00:30:29,750 --> 00:30:27,720
parade had already started and gotten

784
00:30:31,130 --> 00:30:29,760
far down the road and the politicians

785
00:30:33,230 --> 00:30:31,140
jumped in front of it and said look at

786
00:30:35,090 --> 00:30:33,240
what we did well in fact you didn't do

787
00:30:36,649 --> 00:30:35,100
anything it was cooperation that did

788
00:30:40,430 --> 00:30:36,659
that

789
00:30:43,370 --> 00:30:40,440
so is there you know a lot of rules and

790
00:30:45,950 --> 00:30:43,380
came into effect around that time

791
00:30:47,750 --> 00:30:45,960
um and I guess you're saying most of

792
00:30:49,850 --> 00:30:47,760
these rules are not necessary

793
00:30:51,649 --> 00:30:49,860
yeah what tends to be the case it's not

794
00:30:54,110 --> 00:30:51,659
always the case but what tends to be the

795
00:30:57,590 --> 00:30:54,120
case is that is that the political

796
00:30:59,870 --> 00:30:57,600
climate lags the what's going on in

797
00:31:03,049 --> 00:30:59,880
society so Society comes to some

798
00:31:04,730 --> 00:31:03,059
decision we want this and then we get

799
00:31:07,970 --> 00:31:04,740
laws and you can see that playing out

800
00:31:10,070 --> 00:31:07,980
right now with marijuana for decades now

801
00:31:12,590 --> 00:31:10,080
Americans have come to the conclusion

802
00:31:14,029 --> 00:31:12,600
that marijuana is not this this horrible

803
00:31:16,850 --> 00:31:14,039
drug that the federal government has

804
00:31:19,990 --> 00:31:16,860
said it is and it should be okay to to

805
00:31:23,330 --> 00:31:20,000
smoke marijuana and so cooperatively

806
00:31:25,789 --> 00:31:23,340
Americans have already we've for decades

807
00:31:28,970 --> 00:31:25,799
we have been accepting of marijuana it's

808
00:31:30,590 --> 00:31:28,980
only lately that governments have have

809
00:31:33,350 --> 00:31:30,600
turned around started changing the law

810
00:31:35,029 --> 00:31:33,360
they lag Society they tend not to lead

811
00:31:37,430 --> 00:31:35,039
Society

812
00:31:39,250 --> 00:31:37,440
and what about things like

813
00:31:42,669 --> 00:31:39,260
um you know monopolies and

814
00:31:46,909 --> 00:31:42,679
anti-competitive behavior and unions

815
00:31:49,669 --> 00:31:46,919
yeah so the question with a monopoly is

816
00:31:51,830 --> 00:31:49,679
that I always go to is why is it a

817
00:31:53,990 --> 00:31:51,840
monopoly and there are two possible

818
00:31:55,549 --> 00:31:54,000
reasons why a firm is a monopoly and I'm

819
00:31:59,630 --> 00:31:55,559
going to use the term loosely right so

820
00:32:02,750 --> 00:31:59,640
think just large firm one possibility is

821
00:32:05,169 --> 00:32:02,760
that the firm has instituted some sort

822
00:32:07,250 --> 00:32:05,179
of barriers that prevent competition

823
00:32:10,370 --> 00:32:07,260
that's a problem

824
00:32:13,190 --> 00:32:10,380
another sort of Monopoly is the one that

825
00:32:15,769 --> 00:32:13,200
delivers a product that is so good at

826
00:32:18,889 --> 00:32:15,779
prices that are so low the customers

827
00:32:20,690 --> 00:32:18,899
don't want to buy anywhere else it's the

828
00:32:23,330 --> 00:32:20,700
customers that have made it a monopoly

829
00:32:25,610 --> 00:32:23,340
so in the first case it's coercion the

830
00:32:27,230 --> 00:32:25,620
Monopoly is is using Force to keep our

831
00:32:28,970 --> 00:32:27,240
competitors in the second case it's

832
00:32:30,950 --> 00:32:28,980
cooperation that customers said yeah

833
00:32:33,230 --> 00:32:30,960
this is the firm I want and if you want

834
00:32:36,649 --> 00:32:33,240
a beautiful string of examples of this

835
00:32:38,690 --> 00:32:36,659
start with Sears Sears Roebuck back in

836
00:32:40,190 --> 00:32:38,700
the day had this catalog it mailed to

837
00:32:42,169 --> 00:32:40,200
every household you could look through

838
00:32:44,149 --> 00:32:42,179
and add every product that Sears sold

839
00:32:45,769 --> 00:32:44,159
and you could call up and order the

840
00:32:47,450 --> 00:32:45,779
thing and it would come to your door you

841
00:32:50,090 --> 00:32:47,460
could go pick it up this sort of thing

842
00:32:52,669 --> 00:32:50,100
Sears was delivering what people wanted

843
00:32:55,909 --> 00:32:52,679
and it grew to be massive

844
00:32:58,130 --> 00:32:55,919
until an upstart came along and this

845
00:33:00,110 --> 00:32:58,140
upstart said we can deliver to you all

846
00:33:02,389 --> 00:33:00,120
of these things and we could do it at a

847
00:33:05,810 --> 00:33:02,399
lower price and that was Walmart

848
00:33:08,029 --> 00:33:05,820
and as Walmart came along customers said

849
00:33:11,090 --> 00:33:08,039
yeah I like that better and they took

850
00:33:13,070 --> 00:33:11,100
away this grant of Monopoly type status

851
00:33:14,930 --> 00:33:13,080
took it away from Sears gave it to

852
00:33:16,549 --> 00:33:14,940
Walmart and then another upstart comes

853
00:33:18,409 --> 00:33:16,559
along the upstart says I can give you

854
00:33:20,570 --> 00:33:18,419
the same low prices as Walmart and I'll

855
00:33:23,210 --> 00:33:20,580
deliver the products overnight to your

856
00:33:26,269 --> 00:33:23,220
door and that's Amazon and what happened

857
00:33:28,430 --> 00:33:26,279
people took away this grant of large

858
00:33:30,830 --> 00:33:28,440
Monopoly type status from Walmart and

859
00:33:32,990 --> 00:33:30,840
they gave it to Amazon so these firms

860
00:33:34,909 --> 00:33:33,000
are becoming large what we would think

861
00:33:37,850 --> 00:33:34,919
of as monopolies they're becoming large

862
00:33:40,430 --> 00:33:37,860
because customers are saying that's the

863
00:33:42,889 --> 00:33:40,440
one I want that type of Monopoly not a

864
00:33:44,930 --> 00:33:42,899
problem the first one that uses Force to

865
00:33:46,909 --> 00:33:44,940
keep out competition that is a problem

866
00:33:50,750 --> 00:33:46,919
but what's interesting about that first

867
00:33:52,490 --> 00:33:50,760
type more often than not to use Force to

868
00:33:54,830 --> 00:33:52,500
keep out competition that type of

869
00:33:56,870 --> 00:33:54,840
Monopoly has to co-opt the government

870
00:33:58,610 --> 00:33:56,880
and so again we have some government

871
00:34:00,950 --> 00:33:58,620
action coming into the marketplace

872
00:34:03,830 --> 00:34:00,960
that's enabling this firm to keep out

873
00:34:05,870 --> 00:34:03,840
its competitors so as you sit here today

874
00:34:08,750 --> 00:34:05,880
when we look at Amazon the current

875
00:34:09,710 --> 00:34:08,760
example you see no concerns there no

876
00:34:12,770 --> 00:34:09,720
problems

877
00:34:16,250 --> 00:34:12,780
no no and I tell you why because the

878
00:34:19,430 --> 00:34:16,260
minute Amazon starts jacking up its

879
00:34:21,710 --> 00:34:19,440
prices or maybe skimping on the quality

880
00:34:23,270 --> 00:34:21,720
or not delivering on the time schedule

881
00:34:25,369 --> 00:34:23,280
that it promises

882
00:34:27,290 --> 00:34:25,379
an entrepreneur will come along and say

883
00:34:29,030 --> 00:34:27,300
I can do it better and customers will

884
00:34:30,710 --> 00:34:29,040
say yes you can we're not buying from

885
00:34:32,690 --> 00:34:30,720
Amazon anymore we're buying from you

886
00:34:34,010 --> 00:34:32,700
it's what happened with Walmart's what

887
00:34:36,349 --> 00:34:34,020
happened with Sears it'll happen

888
00:34:37,669 --> 00:34:36,359
eventually to Amazon and whatever comes

889
00:34:38,990 --> 00:34:37,679
next is going to be better than Amazon

890
00:34:42,050 --> 00:34:39,000
is

891
00:34:43,970 --> 00:34:42,060
and how do you analyze somebody like

892
00:34:46,369 --> 00:34:43,980
Facebook

893
00:34:48,050 --> 00:34:46,379
when it comes to money yeah and and

894
00:34:49,430 --> 00:34:48,060
Facebook is suffering the same sort of

895
00:34:51,230 --> 00:34:49,440
thing we look at Facebook and we say

896
00:34:53,089 --> 00:34:51,240
well it's this big you know social

897
00:34:54,889 --> 00:34:53,099
network and we call the Monopoly

898
00:34:56,990 --> 00:34:54,899
actually Facebook's market share has

899
00:34:59,990 --> 00:34:57,000
been declining for the past several

900
00:35:02,930 --> 00:35:00,000
years it's declining precisely because

901
00:35:04,250 --> 00:35:02,940
Facebook is doing what I described it's

902
00:35:06,349 --> 00:35:04,260
starting to

903
00:35:10,130 --> 00:35:06,359
um not deliver the quality that people

904
00:35:12,530 --> 00:35:10,140
want now a leading entrep leading

905
00:35:15,230 --> 00:35:12,540
competitor hasn't come to the fore yet

906
00:35:17,089 --> 00:35:15,240
but one will in the meantime Facebook's

907
00:35:18,530 --> 00:35:17,099
market share starts to fall and fall as

908
00:35:21,170 --> 00:35:18,540
customers say yeah I don't like this

909
00:35:24,050 --> 00:35:21,180
anymore I'm going somewhere else and

910
00:35:26,150 --> 00:35:24,060
that's the beauty of cooperation when

911
00:35:27,410 --> 00:35:26,160
you don't like what's going on you can

912
00:35:29,750 --> 00:35:27,420
walk away

913
00:35:31,810 --> 00:35:29,760
and let's just tick off the next one

914
00:35:34,130 --> 00:35:31,820
Google slash YouTube

915
00:35:37,250 --> 00:35:34,140
they concern you at all as far as a

916
00:35:39,550 --> 00:35:37,260
monopoly nope nope same thing so long so

917
00:35:42,349 --> 00:35:39,560
long as none of them are

918
00:35:46,069 --> 00:35:42,359
co-opting the government to protect

919
00:35:47,630 --> 00:35:46,079
their space uh there's no problem there

920
00:35:49,970 --> 00:35:47,640
because so long as there's no government

921
00:35:52,310 --> 00:35:49,980
involved you can walk away so let's dip

922
00:35:54,530 --> 00:35:52,320
our toe then into the censorship that's

923
00:35:57,349 --> 00:35:54,540
going on on all three of them you know

924
00:36:00,050 --> 00:35:57,359
Amazon is Banning certain books uh

925
00:36:02,390 --> 00:36:00,060
YouTube Banning videos Facebook banning

926
00:36:05,150 --> 00:36:02,400
posts there's certainly an argument that

927
00:36:07,490 --> 00:36:05,160
they're doing that Curry favor with the

928
00:36:11,990 --> 00:36:07,500
government because it seems that what

929
00:36:14,270 --> 00:36:12,000
they tend to uh censor is stuff from the

930
00:36:15,890 --> 00:36:14,280
right and it's the left that seems to be

931
00:36:17,569 --> 00:36:15,900
asking for censorship the right doesn't

932
00:36:19,310 --> 00:36:17,579
seem to ask for censorship so it seems

933
00:36:21,950 --> 00:36:19,320
like they are trying to Curry favor with

934
00:36:23,750 --> 00:36:21,960
the group that's asking for it

935
00:36:26,870 --> 00:36:23,760
um how do you Analyze That

936
00:36:28,910 --> 00:36:26,880
yeah in in this looks bad and people use

937
00:36:30,290 --> 00:36:28,920
you know use the term censorship and

938
00:36:32,150 --> 00:36:30,300
people will say well this is a First

939
00:36:34,069 --> 00:36:32,160
Amendment violation I want to underline

940
00:36:36,349 --> 00:36:34,079
this is not a First Amendment violation

941
00:36:38,870 --> 00:36:36,359
First Amendment violation is the

942
00:36:41,089 --> 00:36:38,880
government steps in and and squelches

943
00:36:43,010 --> 00:36:41,099
your speech Facebook is not the

944
00:36:46,910 --> 00:36:43,020
government and it's Facebook's platform

945
00:36:49,250 --> 00:36:46,920
if it wants to to throttle uh viewers on

946
00:36:51,349 --> 00:36:49,260
my page well it's free to do so I don't

947
00:36:54,650 --> 00:36:51,359
like it but it's free to do so it's

948
00:36:57,170 --> 00:36:54,660
Facebook's platform uh so to Amazon

949
00:36:59,210 --> 00:36:57,180
um and what happens the more the more

950
00:37:00,890 --> 00:36:59,220
these things happen the more people will

951
00:37:03,890 --> 00:37:00,900
tend to look for Alternatives and

952
00:37:06,829 --> 00:37:03,900
Alternatives will emerge the problem

953
00:37:08,450 --> 00:37:06,839
is if as you suggest they turn to

954
00:37:10,790 --> 00:37:08,460
government we hear a little bit of that

955
00:37:13,250 --> 00:37:10,800
now Elizabeth Warren when she was

956
00:37:15,230 --> 00:37:13,260
running for president said in a kind of

957
00:37:17,870 --> 00:37:15,240
an offhand way but it was concerning to

958
00:37:20,870 --> 00:37:17,880
me she said what we really need is to

959
00:37:22,849 --> 00:37:20,880
license journalists now that's a huge

960
00:37:25,609 --> 00:37:22,859
problem because now you have the

961
00:37:28,609 --> 00:37:25,619
government coming in and using its Force

962
00:37:30,290 --> 00:37:28,619
to say who may and may not speak on

963
00:37:34,550 --> 00:37:30,300
various topics

964
00:37:36,109 --> 00:37:34,560
the problem there is I can't walk away

965
00:37:39,130 --> 00:37:36,119
you you certainly have the government

966
00:37:41,329 --> 00:37:39,140
complaining again the left

967
00:37:43,730 --> 00:37:41,339
politicians including the Biden

968
00:37:46,550 --> 00:37:43,740
Administration complaining about

969
00:37:49,670 --> 00:37:46,560
misinformation that's out there and that

970
00:37:52,130 --> 00:37:49,680
social media is not doing enough to

971
00:37:54,890 --> 00:37:52,140
curtail Nations specifically about the

972
00:37:56,690 --> 00:37:54,900
vaccines even though I know based on

973
00:38:00,770 --> 00:37:56,700
personal experience we've had an episode

974
00:38:03,290 --> 00:38:00,780
taken down uh from YouTube because I had

975
00:38:05,569 --> 00:38:03,300
a University of Wisconsin Professor on

976
00:38:07,190 --> 00:38:05,579
who said that you should be very

977
00:38:09,170 --> 00:38:07,200
cautious about taking the vaccine if

978
00:38:11,390 --> 00:38:09,180
you've already had covet that there's

979
00:38:12,950 --> 00:38:11,400
been a lot of significant side effects

980
00:38:15,530 --> 00:38:12,960
for people who get the vaccine who've

981
00:38:17,750 --> 00:38:15,540
already had covid and that it was never

982
00:38:19,550 --> 00:38:17,760
tested the vaccines were never tested on

983
00:38:22,250 --> 00:38:19,560
people who had already had coveted so he

984
00:38:25,250 --> 00:38:22,260
put out this significant warning for

985
00:38:27,650 --> 00:38:25,260
those people he's an MD he's advised

986
00:38:29,450 --> 00:38:27,660
congressional committees YouTube took it

987
00:38:32,810 --> 00:38:29,460
down as misinformation

988
00:38:34,970 --> 00:38:32,820
uh yeah so yeah and they're doing so in

989
00:38:37,970 --> 00:38:34,980
response to the government

990
00:38:40,069 --> 00:38:37,980
the Biden Administration saying that you

991
00:38:43,849 --> 00:38:40,079
guys need to do more to curtail

992
00:38:46,430 --> 00:38:43,859
misinformation otherwise we may do

993
00:38:49,609 --> 00:38:46,440
something to you right but and notice

994
00:38:51,170 --> 00:38:49,619
the notice the unstated Assumption here

995
00:38:53,390 --> 00:38:51,180
and that is that the Biden

996
00:38:55,370 --> 00:38:53,400
Administration is able to correctly

997
00:38:58,550 --> 00:38:55,380
identify what is and is not

998
00:39:01,430 --> 00:38:58,560
misinformation and that's the ultimate

999
00:39:03,530 --> 00:39:01,440
problem here that we've got the

1000
00:39:06,890 --> 00:39:03,540
government claiming to be the Arbiter of

1001
00:39:08,990 --> 00:39:06,900
the truce and I understand that it's not

1002
00:39:10,609 --> 00:39:09,000
entirely clear you know there are things

1003
00:39:11,930 --> 00:39:10,619
that are Unknown about the virus there

1004
00:39:15,250 --> 00:39:11,940
are things that are Unknown about the

1005
00:39:18,530 --> 00:39:15,260
vaccines but the cure to misinformation

1006
00:39:20,390 --> 00:39:18,540
is more information not less let the

1007
00:39:23,089 --> 00:39:20,400
ideas come out in the marketplace and

1008
00:39:24,650 --> 00:39:23,099
let them let them argue and the ones

1009
00:39:26,329 --> 00:39:24,660
that are correct those arguments will

1010
00:39:28,849 --> 00:39:26,339
rise to the four the other ones will

1011
00:39:30,470 --> 00:39:28,859
fall this is this is what we use we

1012
00:39:32,870 --> 00:39:30,480
people like to say let's follow the

1013
00:39:36,470 --> 00:39:32,880
science this is exactly how science

1014
00:39:37,849 --> 00:39:36,480
works somebody proposes a hypothesis and

1015
00:39:40,069 --> 00:39:37,859
puts it up for scrutiny and somebody

1016
00:39:41,930 --> 00:39:40,079
proposes an alternative hypothesis and

1017
00:39:44,150 --> 00:39:41,940
puts it up for scrutiny and you have an

1018
00:39:45,770 --> 00:39:44,160
argument as to what's going on and the

1019
00:39:48,710 --> 00:39:45,780
truth will eventually bubble to the top

1020
00:39:51,290 --> 00:39:48,720
you don't have that Dynamic bubbling to

1021
00:39:53,569 --> 00:39:51,300
the top of the truth if before we've

1022
00:39:55,310 --> 00:39:53,579
ever figured out what the truth is we

1023
00:39:58,130 --> 00:39:55,320
say well this stuff over here must be

1024
00:39:59,930 --> 00:39:58,140
wrong so let's not talk about it yeah I

1025
00:40:01,250 --> 00:39:59,940
mean we certainly have them reacting to

1026
00:40:04,329 --> 00:40:01,260
a threat

1027
00:40:07,910 --> 00:40:04,339
or an implied threat of more regulation

1028
00:40:12,230 --> 00:40:07,920
if you guys don't start

1029
00:40:14,089 --> 00:40:12,240
um uh censoring what we consider the

1030
00:40:16,130 --> 00:40:14,099
Biden Administration to be

1031
00:40:18,050 --> 00:40:16,140
misinformation

1032
00:40:20,450 --> 00:40:18,060
right and the thing we need to keep in

1033
00:40:22,970 --> 00:40:20,460
mind here because we tend to ascribe

1034
00:40:25,609 --> 00:40:22,980
magical powers to government

1035
00:40:27,170 --> 00:40:25,619
who is it that's deciding this is the

1036
00:40:29,750 --> 00:40:27,180
truth there's some politicians there's

1037
00:40:31,490 --> 00:40:29,760
bureaucrats yes they rely on experts but

1038
00:40:33,829 --> 00:40:31,500
it's the politicians and the bureaucrats

1039
00:40:37,010 --> 00:40:33,839
who ultimately make the call they aren't

1040
00:40:39,349 --> 00:40:37,020
contact content experts the best they

1041
00:40:41,450 --> 00:40:39,359
can do is what we would do which is

1042
00:40:43,550 --> 00:40:41,460
listen to what other people have to say

1043
00:40:45,349 --> 00:40:43,560
and come to some conclusion what they're

1044
00:40:46,329 --> 00:40:45,359
trying to do is substitute their

1045
00:40:51,589 --> 00:40:46,339
judgment

1046
00:40:54,589 --> 00:40:51,599
uh just to stay on social media for a

1047
00:40:56,510 --> 00:40:54,599
second section 230 which gives them the

1048
00:40:58,130 --> 00:40:56,520
government correct me from wrong is

1049
00:41:01,609 --> 00:40:58,140
protecting these companies against

1050
00:41:04,670 --> 00:41:01,619
someone suing them for defamation libel

1051
00:41:06,530 --> 00:41:04,680
Etc because the social media entities

1052
00:41:07,910 --> 00:41:06,540
are saying that hey we're just a portal

1053
00:41:09,650 --> 00:41:07,920
we're just allowing people to voice

1054
00:41:11,690 --> 00:41:09,660
their opinion this is not our opinion we

1055
00:41:14,569 --> 00:41:11,700
make that very clear and that's why you

1056
00:41:16,790 --> 00:41:14,579
can't sue us under Section 230 for that

1057
00:41:18,650 --> 00:41:16,800
but if they're going to start editing

1058
00:41:21,410 --> 00:41:18,660
content

1059
00:41:23,150 --> 00:41:21,420
then isn't that a situation where wait a

1060
00:41:25,010 --> 00:41:23,160
minute you're not just letting this be a

1061
00:41:28,670 --> 00:41:25,020
forum you're picking and choosing now

1062
00:41:30,410 --> 00:41:28,680
what's on your platform in 230 should

1063
00:41:31,970 --> 00:41:30,420
either no longer apply I don't know the

1064
00:41:34,190 --> 00:41:31,980
details of 230 or we should just

1065
00:41:36,109 --> 00:41:34,200
eliminate 230. yeah I think you're

1066
00:41:38,870 --> 00:41:36,119
absolutely right and again I also don't

1067
00:41:42,530 --> 00:41:38,880
know the details of 230 but it does seem

1068
00:41:44,930 --> 00:41:42,540
right somehow the the platform like

1069
00:41:46,130 --> 00:41:44,940
Facebook should make a call and say

1070
00:41:48,650 --> 00:41:46,140
either

1071
00:41:51,109 --> 00:41:48,660
um we're a communications platform like

1072
00:41:53,150 --> 00:41:51,119
a tele telephone company and whatever

1073
00:41:54,589 --> 00:41:53,160
goes on is we have nothing to say about

1074
00:41:56,510 --> 00:41:54,599
it and so therefore we shouldn't be

1075
00:42:01,569 --> 00:41:56,520
liable provide the what's going on is

1076
00:42:05,329 --> 00:42:01,579
legal or it's a it's a if in effect a um

1077
00:42:07,790 --> 00:42:05,339
an editorial a curator of the

1078
00:42:10,069 --> 00:42:07,800
information in which case Facebook is

1079
00:42:12,050 --> 00:42:10,079
actively deciding what you will and will

1080
00:42:13,309 --> 00:42:12,060
not hear in that instance it does seem

1081
00:42:15,890 --> 00:42:13,319
reasonable that if that's what it's

1082
00:42:18,290 --> 00:42:15,900
going to do it should be liable but what

1083
00:42:21,170 --> 00:42:18,300
I what I think is incorrect is that you

1084
00:42:23,569 --> 00:42:21,180
try you Facebook try to get the best of

1085
00:42:25,370 --> 00:42:23,579
both worlds and that is to say well we

1086
00:42:27,230 --> 00:42:25,380
have the right to curate but we

1087
00:42:29,270 --> 00:42:27,240
shouldn't be held liable either that

1088
00:42:31,190 --> 00:42:29,280
seems to be a problem right

1089
00:42:34,130 --> 00:42:31,200
all right before I let you go I want to

1090
00:42:36,950 --> 00:42:34,140
hit on three really big controversial

1091
00:42:39,790 --> 00:42:36,960
issues that I struggle with

1092
00:42:41,990 --> 00:42:39,800
um I kind of go back and forth as far as

1093
00:42:43,790 --> 00:42:42,000
my feelings about the proper role of

1094
00:42:45,349 --> 00:42:43,800
government on these so since you just

1095
00:42:47,329 --> 00:42:45,359
wrote cooperation conversion and

1096
00:42:49,010 --> 00:42:47,339
coercion let's take through these so

1097
00:42:55,030 --> 00:42:49,020
abortion

1098
00:42:57,710 --> 00:42:55,040
it comes to proper role of government

1099
00:43:00,890 --> 00:42:57,720
cooperation coercion

1100
00:43:02,930 --> 00:43:00,900
yeah so this is a really hard this is a

1101
00:43:05,270 --> 00:43:02,940
really hard topic that I try not to talk

1102
00:43:07,309 --> 00:43:05,280
about for obvious reasons

1103
00:43:10,010 --> 00:43:07,319
um but but I'll give this a little bit

1104
00:43:12,710 --> 00:43:10,020
of commentary and that's this it seems

1105
00:43:16,130 --> 00:43:12,720
to me that our discussion on both sides

1106
00:43:17,690 --> 00:43:16,140
of abortion in this country tend to miss

1107
00:43:20,690 --> 00:43:17,700
the point

1108
00:43:22,790 --> 00:43:20,700
and the focal point of of the thing and

1109
00:43:26,750 --> 00:43:22,800
the focal point of the thing I think is

1110
00:43:29,390 --> 00:43:26,760
is this is this entity and use whatever

1111
00:43:30,950 --> 00:43:29,400
word you want fetus child what have you

1112
00:43:33,490 --> 00:43:30,960
but we all know what we're talking about

1113
00:43:35,750 --> 00:43:33,500
here is this this this entity this thing

1114
00:43:38,809 --> 00:43:35,760
is this thing

1115
00:43:43,270 --> 00:43:38,819
um a rights-bearing individual

1116
00:43:46,069 --> 00:43:43,280
if it is then it has its right to life

1117
00:43:49,250 --> 00:43:46,079
supersedes other rights

1118
00:43:51,650 --> 00:43:49,260
that other people involved may have if

1119
00:43:55,130 --> 00:43:51,660
however this thing is not a

1120
00:43:58,309 --> 00:43:55,140
rights-bearing individual then clearly

1121
00:44:00,650 --> 00:43:58,319
it has no right to anything and so

1122
00:44:04,910 --> 00:44:00,660
everybody else's rights who are involved

1123
00:44:07,550 --> 00:44:04,920
um take precedence and what we know is

1124
00:44:09,829 --> 00:44:07,560
that prior to conception there's no

1125
00:44:12,770 --> 00:44:09,839
rights-bearing individual here the other

1126
00:44:15,530 --> 00:44:12,780
thing we know is at the instant of birth

1127
00:44:17,750 --> 00:44:15,540
there is a right-sparing individual

1128
00:44:19,010 --> 00:44:17,760
somewhere between those two points there

1129
00:44:20,690 --> 00:44:19,020
was a change

1130
00:44:21,650 --> 00:44:20,700
we didn't have a rightsbury individual

1131
00:44:23,870 --> 00:44:21,660
all of a sudden we did have a

1132
00:44:26,750 --> 00:44:23,880
right-sparing individual I don't know

1133
00:44:28,970 --> 00:44:26,760
where that change occurs but that's

1134
00:44:30,829 --> 00:44:28,980
where we should be focusing instead we

1135
00:44:32,870 --> 00:44:30,839
talk about and it is important it is

1136
00:44:34,550 --> 00:44:32,880
important to talk about women's rights

1137
00:44:36,530 --> 00:44:34,560
their bodies it is important to talk

1138
00:44:39,050 --> 00:44:36,540
about the right to life but neither one

1139
00:44:40,670 --> 00:44:39,060
of those things I think get us anywhere

1140
00:44:45,109 --> 00:44:40,680
toward an answer

1141
00:44:47,870 --> 00:44:45,119
addressing that question at what point

1142
00:44:51,770 --> 00:44:47,880
does this thing become a rights-bearing

1143
00:44:53,210 --> 00:44:51,780
individual I have no way of of answering

1144
00:44:55,849 --> 00:44:53,220
that I don't know of anybody who does

1145
00:44:57,290 --> 00:44:55,859
have a way of answering that but that is

1146
00:44:59,150 --> 00:44:57,300
the key to answering the abortion

1147
00:45:01,130 --> 00:44:59,160
question well in the current state of

1148
00:45:03,230 --> 00:45:01,140
affairs in America is that it's a it

1149
00:45:06,430 --> 00:45:03,240
seems to be a limited rights-bearing

1150
00:45:08,750 --> 00:45:06,440
individual during that

1151
00:45:10,370 --> 00:45:08,760
yeah and that's kind of weird I don't I

1152
00:45:13,930 --> 00:45:10,380
don't know how to deal with that because

1153
00:45:17,210 --> 00:45:13,940
there's no in in our constitutional

1154
00:45:19,309 --> 00:45:17,220
framework there's no such thing as a as

1155
00:45:21,470 --> 00:45:19,319
a quasi-rights bearing individual you

1156
00:45:23,329 --> 00:45:21,480
either are or you aren't right

1157
00:45:24,589 --> 00:45:23,339
right but yeah that's kind of the

1158
00:45:26,510 --> 00:45:24,599
situation we're in with where it's

1159
00:45:28,430 --> 00:45:26,520
health of the mother versus the baby Etc

1160
00:45:30,230 --> 00:45:28,440
as far as I don't know second trimester

1161
00:45:30,829 --> 00:45:30,240
or whatever

1162
00:45:33,530 --> 00:45:30,839
um

1163
00:45:35,990 --> 00:45:33,540
okay let's go I'll hit the next one uh

1164
00:45:37,670 --> 00:45:36,000
guns now right there in the Constitution

1165
00:45:40,490 --> 00:45:37,680
it obviously says that you've got a

1166
00:45:42,710 --> 00:45:40,500
right to to bear arms but um that

1167
00:45:44,690 --> 00:45:42,720
doesn't necessarily make it good policy

1168
00:45:46,430 --> 00:45:44,700
it's something that the founders liked

1169
00:45:49,970 --> 00:45:46,440
at the time

1170
00:45:51,770 --> 00:45:49,980
um but certainly guns you know in an

1171
00:45:54,770 --> 00:45:51,780
Ideal World if we could snap our fingers

1172
00:45:56,930 --> 00:45:54,780
and have there be zero guns uh in the

1173
00:45:58,730 --> 00:45:56,940
world I think that make the World

1174
00:46:00,950 --> 00:45:58,740
perhaps a better place or in America or

1175
00:46:02,990 --> 00:46:00,960
in any particular City but

1176
00:46:04,970 --> 00:46:03,000
um putting aside the fact that yeah I

1177
00:46:06,770 --> 00:46:04,980
get it it's in the Constitution they're

1178
00:46:08,450 --> 00:46:06,780
allowed but as you think about the

1179
00:46:11,809 --> 00:46:08,460
proper role of government cooperation

1180
00:46:16,069 --> 00:46:11,819
coercion how would you analyze guns

1181
00:46:19,430 --> 00:46:16,079
well yeah we devote a chapter of to to

1182
00:46:22,730 --> 00:46:19,440
this uh Topic in our book and what we do

1183
00:46:25,490 --> 00:46:22,740
is we ask some pragmatic questions

1184
00:46:28,550 --> 00:46:25,500
about what is the relationship between

1185
00:46:31,069 --> 00:46:28,560
gun ownership and homicides and we look

1186
00:46:32,750 --> 00:46:31,079
at data across the 50 states and across

1187
00:46:35,870 --> 00:46:32,760
time we look at multiple countries as

1188
00:46:38,589 --> 00:46:35,880
well and we compare levels of gun

1189
00:46:41,630 --> 00:46:38,599
ownership to to

1190
00:46:44,569 --> 00:46:41,640
homicides and we don't find any

1191
00:46:47,030 --> 00:46:44,579
relationship here it's we do not find

1192
00:46:50,030 --> 00:46:47,040
that more guns are associated with more

1193
00:46:51,770 --> 00:46:50,040
homicides nor do we find that more guns

1194
00:46:53,630 --> 00:46:51,780
are associated with fewer homicides

1195
00:46:55,849 --> 00:46:53,640
there seems to be no relationship here

1196
00:46:57,829 --> 00:46:55,859
and so we look at various various things

1197
00:47:00,349 --> 00:46:57,839
like this and we find no relationship in

1198
00:47:02,450 --> 00:47:00,359
the data anywhere until

1199
00:47:05,089 --> 00:47:02,460
we look at the relationship between gun

1200
00:47:08,030 --> 00:47:05,099
ownership and suicide and there we do

1201
00:47:09,770 --> 00:47:08,040
find a marked relationship in periods of

1202
00:47:11,510 --> 00:47:09,780
time and in States in which there have

1203
00:47:13,730 --> 00:47:11,520
been there has been more gun ownership

1204
00:47:15,170 --> 00:47:13,740
the suicide rates have also been higher

1205
00:47:16,849 --> 00:47:15,180
in periods in which there's less gun

1206
00:47:20,030 --> 00:47:16,859
ownership the suicide rates have been

1207
00:47:21,890 --> 00:47:20,040
less have been much lower and and so

1208
00:47:23,690 --> 00:47:21,900
this kind of makes sense if you think

1209
00:47:26,329 --> 00:47:23,700
about it because a gun is a way to

1210
00:47:28,730 --> 00:47:26,339
commit suicide is to turn your decision

1211
00:47:30,829 --> 00:47:28,740
to commit suicide into a reality almost

1212
00:47:34,250 --> 00:47:30,839
instantaneously

1213
00:47:35,569 --> 00:47:34,260
and so there is an argument here if you

1214
00:47:37,490 --> 00:47:35,579
want to talk about

1215
00:47:39,470 --> 00:47:37,500
um you know dealing with mental health

1216
00:47:41,870 --> 00:47:39,480
of this relationship between guns and

1217
00:47:44,089 --> 00:47:41,880
mental health but in terms of homicides

1218
00:47:45,650 --> 00:47:44,099
we simply don't see it and people point

1219
00:47:48,950 --> 00:47:45,660
to things like Australia and say Well

1220
00:47:51,829 --> 00:47:48,960
when Australia banned guns it's homicide

1221
00:47:53,690 --> 00:47:51,839
it's some firearm homicide rate fell of

1222
00:47:55,130 --> 00:47:53,700
course it's firearm homicide rate fell

1223
00:47:57,349 --> 00:47:55,140
you could ban the guns but that's not

1224
00:47:59,630 --> 00:47:57,359
what's important it's not the firearm

1225
00:48:01,430 --> 00:47:59,640
homicide rate it's the homicide rate and

1226
00:48:03,530 --> 00:48:01,440
if you look what you see is at the same

1227
00:48:06,170 --> 00:48:03,540
time in Australia is there firearm

1228
00:48:08,510 --> 00:48:06,180
homicide rate fell their knife homicide

1229
00:48:09,710 --> 00:48:08,520
rate went up so all you did was cause

1230
00:48:12,890 --> 00:48:09,720
people to shift from one to the other

1231
00:48:16,190 --> 00:48:12,900
and in fact over this same period where

1232
00:48:19,910 --> 00:48:16,200
Australia banned its guns its overall

1233
00:48:21,470 --> 00:48:19,920
homicide rate fell by less than the

1234
00:48:23,829 --> 00:48:21,480
overall homicide rate in the United

1235
00:48:27,470 --> 00:48:23,839
States they didn't ban guns

1236
00:48:30,410 --> 00:48:27,480
interesting stuff okay last one is the

1237
00:48:35,270 --> 00:48:33,049
yeah do you devote a chapter of the book

1238
00:48:37,309 --> 00:48:35,280
to the doctor no no we don't talk we

1239
00:48:39,890 --> 00:48:37,319
don't talk about the death penalty um

1240
00:48:43,490 --> 00:48:39,900
and this is one of these things that my

1241
00:48:45,349 --> 00:48:43,500
thoughts on it are not entirely clear

1242
00:48:47,870 --> 00:48:45,359
um I I would think

1243
00:48:50,930 --> 00:48:47,880
I do see an inconsistency and I simply

1244
00:48:53,569 --> 00:48:50,940
point to the inconsistency and that is I

1245
00:48:54,950 --> 00:48:53,579
find I find a lot of people in the

1246
00:48:57,349 --> 00:48:54,960
supplies to both sides I find a lot of

1247
00:48:59,930 --> 00:48:57,359
people on the one side who are very

1248
00:49:01,910 --> 00:48:59,940
um pro-life anti-abortion

1249
00:49:04,609 --> 00:49:01,920
not all of them but but a decent number

1250
00:49:07,849 --> 00:49:04,619
of them also being pro-death penalty and

1251
00:49:10,730 --> 00:49:07,859
that strikes me as odd because if if you

1252
00:49:13,549 --> 00:49:10,740
want to emphasize that this this

1253
00:49:15,410 --> 00:49:13,559
child has a right to life why doesn't

1254
00:49:17,569 --> 00:49:15,420
this other person have a right to life

1255
00:49:19,430 --> 00:49:17,579
also do you give it you know you're

1256
00:49:22,370 --> 00:49:19,440
claiming he's given up in some sense but

1257
00:49:23,349 --> 00:49:22,380
then I can I can point to the same

1258
00:49:25,730 --> 00:49:23,359
um

1259
00:49:27,710 --> 00:49:25,740
inconsistency on the other side I see a

1260
00:49:29,390 --> 00:49:27,720
lot of people who are pro-abortion

1261
00:49:30,890 --> 00:49:29,400
saying no you know this this not a child

1262
00:49:32,510 --> 00:49:30,900
doesn't have a right to life

1263
00:49:35,030 --> 00:49:32,520
um on the other hand saying well this

1264
00:49:36,589 --> 00:49:35,040
criminal we have no right to to take his

1265
00:49:38,569 --> 00:49:36,599
life who are we to take the life of

1266
00:49:41,270 --> 00:49:38,579
another person and so

1267
00:49:43,430 --> 00:49:41,280
I I have no good answer to your question

1268
00:49:45,650 --> 00:49:43,440
other than this kind of armchair

1269
00:49:47,750 --> 00:49:45,660
observation that there seem to be a lot

1270
00:49:49,670 --> 00:49:47,760
of people on both sides of this question

1271
00:49:52,849 --> 00:49:49,680
who are who seem to be thinking

1272
00:49:56,510 --> 00:49:52,859
inconsistently yeah well you would think

1273
00:49:58,130 --> 00:49:56,520
that limited government folks on on the

1274
00:50:00,589 --> 00:49:58,140
right would would kind of be against the

1275
00:50:02,390 --> 00:50:00,599
death penalty generally because we like

1276
00:50:05,210 --> 00:50:02,400
less coercion from the government less

1277
00:50:08,630 --> 00:50:05,220
involvement in things and

1278
00:50:11,390 --> 00:50:08,640
um but it's also an Enforcement issue

1279
00:50:13,190 --> 00:50:11,400
and if there's one thing that people on

1280
00:50:15,589 --> 00:50:13,200
the right agree with is that at least

1281
00:50:18,710 --> 00:50:15,599
one role for government nobody seems to

1282
00:50:21,589 --> 00:50:18,720
dispute is protecting the people right

1283
00:50:22,970 --> 00:50:21,599
right preventing harm right preventing I

1284
00:50:24,770 --> 00:50:22,980
mean basically we form the government to

1285
00:50:27,829 --> 00:50:24,780
begin with to protect ourselves against

1286
00:50:29,930 --> 00:50:27,839
foreign foreign adversaries and

1287
00:50:32,329 --> 00:50:29,940
um and to prevent

1288
00:50:35,030 --> 00:50:32,339
or uh or guard against Crime in the U.S

1289
00:50:37,370 --> 00:50:35,040
right yeah yeah and this is right it

1290
00:50:40,190 --> 00:50:37,380
raises the question are there other ways

1291
00:50:42,170 --> 00:50:40,200
to prevent harmed and then

1292
00:50:44,630 --> 00:50:42,180
um you know

1293
00:50:46,670 --> 00:50:44,640
sentencing someone to death and I don't

1294
00:50:49,970 --> 00:50:46,680
know enough about the topic to say one

1295
00:50:52,490 --> 00:50:49,980
way or the other uh other than just than

1296
00:50:55,609 --> 00:50:52,500
to say yeah this is this is a messy it

1297
00:50:57,230 --> 00:50:55,619
becomes very messy anytime you're

1298
00:50:58,970 --> 00:50:57,240
dealing with an instance and you see

1299
00:51:01,309 --> 00:50:58,980
this with with capital punishment you

1300
00:51:02,809 --> 00:51:01,319
see it with abortion as well it's messy

1301
00:51:04,549 --> 00:51:02,819
anytime we're dealing with the question

1302
00:51:06,589 --> 00:51:04,559
of taking away someone's rights or

1303
00:51:08,030 --> 00:51:06,599
potentially taking away someone's rights

1304
00:51:09,250 --> 00:51:08,040
and the ultimate right which is the

1305
00:51:11,450 --> 00:51:09,260
right to be alive

1306
00:51:13,010 --> 00:51:11,460
how about this last time before I let

1307
00:51:15,349 --> 00:51:13,020
you go on that is we're hearing so much

1308
00:51:18,650 --> 00:51:15,359
about Equity these days it's no more

1309
00:51:22,010 --> 00:51:18,660
about equality it's about equity and I

1310
00:51:25,849 --> 00:51:22,020
was thinking about it and you know it

1311
00:51:27,230 --> 00:51:25,859
government should protect equality you

1312
00:51:31,010 --> 00:51:27,240
know as far as everybody having the

1313
00:51:33,710 --> 00:51:31,020
right to be treated equally but Equity

1314
00:51:36,049 --> 00:51:33,720
seems to be all about you know uh

1315
00:51:37,970 --> 00:51:36,059
coercing or enforcing

1316
00:51:39,530 --> 00:51:37,980
some end result

1317
00:51:40,910 --> 00:51:39,540
yeah quality that seems to be the

1318
00:51:44,750 --> 00:51:40,920
difference between equity and equality

1319
00:51:47,510 --> 00:51:44,760
one is protecting everybody to to be

1320
00:51:48,950 --> 00:51:47,520
themselves the other is coercing a

1321
00:51:50,750 --> 00:51:48,960
particular result

1322
00:51:53,450 --> 00:51:50,760
yeah and it's kind of weird isn't it

1323
00:51:56,150 --> 00:51:53,460
because the people who tend to be most

1324
00:51:59,030 --> 00:51:56,160
pro-equity of everybody should be all be

1325
00:52:01,970 --> 00:51:59,040
the same are also the people who tend to

1326
00:52:04,849 --> 00:52:01,980
say that diversity is important well

1327
00:52:07,309 --> 00:52:04,859
hang on a second because the reason we

1328
00:52:09,170 --> 00:52:07,319
have inequity at all is because of

1329
00:52:10,549 --> 00:52:09,180
diversity some of us are smarter than

1330
00:52:11,990 --> 00:52:10,559
others some of us are more attractive

1331
00:52:13,730 --> 00:52:12,000
than others some of us more talented

1332
00:52:15,950 --> 00:52:13,740
than others some of us are born to

1333
00:52:17,809 --> 00:52:15,960
better circumstances than others because

1334
00:52:21,170 --> 00:52:17,819
we're diverse in these very important

1335
00:52:23,870 --> 00:52:21,180
ways if you leave us alone some of us

1336
00:52:27,829 --> 00:52:23,880
are going to rise higher than others and

1337
00:52:30,589 --> 00:52:27,839
and so to say the government has a role

1338
00:52:32,630 --> 00:52:30,599
in taking away from people who have

1339
00:52:34,430 --> 00:52:32,640
risen higher for whatever reason giving

1340
00:52:37,849 --> 00:52:34,440
it to these other people

1341
00:52:40,069 --> 00:52:37,859
on the one hand is to say not only is

1342
00:52:42,170 --> 00:52:40,079
diversity not important actually we need

1343
00:52:44,450 --> 00:52:42,180
to level it all out so we don't see any

1344
00:52:46,010 --> 00:52:44,460
diversity except the diversity of skin

1345
00:52:47,510 --> 00:52:46,020
color which is what people

1346
00:52:48,890 --> 00:52:47,520
sometimes mean when they talk about

1347
00:52:51,109 --> 00:52:48,900
diversity

1348
00:52:52,790 --> 00:52:51,119
um on the other hand there's there's a

1349
00:52:55,490 --> 00:52:52,800
there's an important thing that's going

1350
00:52:57,710 --> 00:52:55,500
to come out and that is if you do this

1351
00:52:59,150 --> 00:52:57,720
if you say to people who have achieved

1352
00:53:00,910 --> 00:52:59,160
more we're going to take away from you

1353
00:53:04,670 --> 00:53:00,920
and give to people who achieve less less

1354
00:53:07,309 --> 00:53:04,680
you have taken away the the one of the

1355
00:53:10,190 --> 00:53:07,319
important motivators what is the reason

1356
00:53:12,410 --> 00:53:10,200
that kids spend four years in college

1357
00:53:14,329 --> 00:53:12,420
trying to learn certain things why is it

1358
00:53:16,130 --> 00:53:14,339
that you go to work every day and

1359
00:53:18,049 --> 00:53:16,140
slogging through this job you don't like

1360
00:53:20,750 --> 00:53:18,059
so you can move up and get a better job

1361
00:53:23,329 --> 00:53:20,760
at some other place why you're why are

1362
00:53:26,030 --> 00:53:23,339
we doing this so that we can move up

1363
00:53:28,010 --> 00:53:26,040
if all of a sudden I'm faced with a

1364
00:53:30,049 --> 00:53:28,020
situation of no matter how high I

1365
00:53:31,130 --> 00:53:30,059
attempt to move whatever I get is going

1366
00:53:32,390 --> 00:53:31,140
to be taken away and given to somebody

1367
00:53:34,130 --> 00:53:32,400
else

1368
00:53:35,809 --> 00:53:34,140
I don't see the point in trying anymore

1369
00:53:37,970 --> 00:53:35,819
I might as well just sit back and watch

1370
00:53:39,950 --> 00:53:37,980
television because I'm just as well off

1371
00:53:41,690 --> 00:53:39,960
doing that as I am doing anything else

1372
00:53:44,870 --> 00:53:41,700
or if it's going to be given to you

1373
00:53:47,930 --> 00:53:44,880
regardless yeah exactly yeah and on the

1374
00:53:50,030 --> 00:53:47,940
other side that yeah yeah yeah yeah it's

1375
00:53:52,549 --> 00:53:50,040
no focus on the individual it's all

1376
00:53:54,109 --> 00:53:52,559
lumping people together

1377
00:53:55,430 --> 00:53:54,119
well thank you Professor that was

1378
00:53:57,829 --> 00:53:55,440
awesome what's going to go on at your

1379
00:53:59,510 --> 00:53:57,839
University as far as vaccines and mass

1380
00:54:02,329 --> 00:53:59,520
and so on have they decided all that

1381
00:54:05,270 --> 00:54:02,339
well presumably it's business is normal

1382
00:54:07,250 --> 00:54:05,280
so no masks and the classes are all in

1383
00:54:09,470 --> 00:54:07,260
person and I think universities Coast to

1384
00:54:11,329 --> 00:54:09,480
Coast are interested in going back to

1385
00:54:14,390 --> 00:54:11,339
businesses normal because they are

1386
00:54:17,270 --> 00:54:14,400
deathly afraid that students will

1387
00:54:19,910 --> 00:54:17,280
develop a liking for logging into class

1388
00:54:22,190 --> 00:54:19,920
remotely and there goes all of their

1389
00:54:23,809 --> 00:54:22,200
room and board dollars yeah well UC

1390
00:54:26,089 --> 00:54:23,819
wasn't concerned about that by requiring

1391
00:54:28,309 --> 00:54:26,099
vaccination to to come to school is your

1392
00:54:30,589 --> 00:54:28,319
school going to require the same

1393
00:54:32,089 --> 00:54:30,599
um I think I don't know that they're

1394
00:54:33,349 --> 00:54:32,099
requiring it but they're putting a lot

1395
00:54:35,450 --> 00:54:33,359
of pressure on students to get

1396
00:54:37,490 --> 00:54:35,460
vaccinated yeah I mean considering the

1397
00:54:39,349 --> 00:54:37,500
thing talk about FDA approval still

1398
00:54:42,530 --> 00:54:39,359
doesn't have official FDA approval that

1399
00:54:45,370 --> 00:54:42,540
is still experimental it's really pretty

1400
00:54:48,170 --> 00:54:45,380
shocking that a government would require

1401
00:54:50,510 --> 00:54:48,180
someone to take this thing that is

1402
00:54:53,450 --> 00:54:50,520
technically still experimental

1403
00:54:56,510 --> 00:54:53,460
yeah what worries me is is that the

1404
00:54:59,030 --> 00:54:56,520
people who have gained some power from

1405
00:55:00,710 --> 00:54:59,040
these coveted restrictions are going to

1406
00:55:02,150 --> 00:55:00,720
like it so much that they're not going

1407
00:55:03,829 --> 00:55:02,160
to go away and you start to hear this

1408
00:55:06,109 --> 00:55:03,839
now with the Delta variant and other

1409
00:55:07,789 --> 00:55:06,119
people saying well the flu season was

1410
00:55:09,470 --> 00:55:07,799
much better simply because of masks and

1411
00:55:12,650 --> 00:55:09,480
we should require people to wear masks

1412
00:55:14,809 --> 00:55:12,660
all the time and I it just bothers me

1413
00:55:17,270 --> 00:55:14,819
that some people may have developed a

1414
00:55:19,190 --> 00:55:17,280
taste for power and they're going to be

1415
00:55:20,870 --> 00:55:19,200
um they're not going to be apt to be

1416
00:55:23,510 --> 00:55:20,880
giving it up too easily

1417
00:55:25,190 --> 00:55:23,520
I think we've already seen that we'll

1418
00:55:27,230 --> 00:55:25,200
we'll see what happens to Newsom here in

1419
00:55:29,150 --> 00:55:27,240
California in a couple months yeah

1420
00:55:30,530 --> 00:55:29,160
exactly we may have to take the power

1421
00:55:32,870 --> 00:55:30,540
away from him

1422
00:55:34,789 --> 00:55:32,880
thank you again to Anthony Davies you

1423
00:55:37,370 --> 00:55:34,799
can check out all of his work online

1424
00:55:41,089 --> 00:55:37,380
just Google Anthony Davies and go to

1425
00:55:43,190 --> 00:55:41,099
Amazon and get his book cooperation and

1426
00:55:44,329 --> 00:55:43,200
coercion thank you to our producer

1427
00:55:45,589 --> 00:55:44,339
Michael Parker thank you all for

1428
00:55:48,730 --> 00:55:45,599
listening we'll be back soon with

1429
00:55:53,049 --> 00:55:48,740
another episode of the hit and true show

1430
00:55:57,950 --> 00:55:55,069
thank you for listening to the Android

1431
00:56:00,349 --> 00:55:57,960
show with Jim Breslow you can find us at

1432
00:56:02,750 --> 00:56:00,359
hiddentruthshow.com

1433
00:56:04,870 --> 00:56:02,760
follow us on Facebook Twitter and

1434
00:56:07,130 --> 00:56:04,880
Instagram

1435
00:56:09,950 --> 00:56:07,140
join us again next week for another

1436
00:56:11,590 --> 00:56:09,960
episode of hit and Truth show with Jim

1437
00:56:12,710 --> 00:56:11,600
bresma